Mariana Bay

Join the Mariana Bay to take part in the discussion, we would love to have you on board! We have multiple boards for whatever your interests may be and our community will make you feel right at home, so what are you waiting for? Sign up today!

High IQ War is le good?

I'm aware this is probably a pretty bizarre discussion to have on a forum completely unrelated to psychology/philosophy but its a pet topic I like to float around my circles and was wondering what you guys would think about it.
1705271807635.png
To preface this isn't a justification or endorsement of violent or psychotic behavior, it's just a thesis on human condition. Starting off with a personal anecdote to set the stage:

A good mentor of mine and I were hanging out wasted, started trading stories about some of the fucked up shit we've seen/heard about in our lives. He told me about the time that he had also gotten drunk with another guy, a friend of his who was a shrink for the VA. He'd told him about one his clients, active duty ranger, and the story of the first time he had killed someone. The client and his team were running an assault on some Afghanistan compound, and this was the first time he was going to be pointman in the stack. The shrink asked the guy how he felt, and he said that he was pretty much ecstatic, it was a surprise attack on a confirmed haji compound, 99 percent chance he was going to get to kill someone today. Said he felt like he was about to "burst with excitement" lol. Anyway they start clearing the x, and the guy's team stack up on a door, go for a breach, his body's tense, his adrenaline though the roof, they bang the door down, and as he enters he see's a guy raise his rifle towards him, and the ranger starts dumping his mag into him. He told the shrink that as soon as he saw the dude's body drop, he came his pants, like actually, literally came lmao. That moment had changed him dramatically, and he shared to the shrink that he felt an immense guilt, thought that he was inhuman, a sick freak, a psychopath, going to hell, etc. Couldn't look his kids in the face, couldn't have sex with his wife anymore, borderline suicidal at this point, so he went to this therapist. And the shrink had pretty much told him, after a long session, that there was nothing wrong with him, it was perfectly normal reaction to the adrenaline, cortisol, dopamine, everything else attributing to his hormonal high, that it just manifested physically in this "release." Think about when a hunter finally takes the shot on a deer he's been stalking, and lands the perfect hit, its the same kind of "pleasure" just multiplied by a hundred in his case, it's not reflective of his mentality. I guess that mindset worked for him, cause he met with the shrink for a few more follow-ups, and his psyche had pretty much returned to normal, no longer distressed about his guilt. My mentor then asked the shrink "is that really true, is it normal to have that kind of reaction to killing people." Shrink replied," No... that guy's a monster."

So that brings me to the actual topic, is it really immoral or wrong to "like killing," not in the serial killer fashion, more or less on the excitement of combat and war. From a biological analysis; our ancestors were hunter's and gatherer's for the majority of our evolutionary lifespan, we've developed genetic and behavioural traits to accomodate those roles. Traits which still are the foundation in much of our psychological behaviour today. Competition, conflict, "winning," are all very present in society, I think we all have a level of satisfaction that comes from these moments, and put into simple terms, we "crave that rush." However, as humanity at large aims to pull away from our animal instincts, civilization and society doesnt cater towards these more disruptive behaviours. Sure we have recreational hunting, sports, martial arts, etc, but you're only allowed these as ways to placate the satisfaction from instinctual urges. Bar fights, Gang wars, and other acts of "mutual violence" are obviously not allowed for the sake of a peaceful, civilized society; except for war.

Now you could talk all day about why war is beneficial or disruptive, but I want to focus on the effects towards the psychology of the individual. Most nowawdays, grow up with the consensus that killing, war, and the death that comes with it, is morally, ethically, and legally wrong in every manner, and should always be avoided at all costs. I think this developmental mindset ends up being ingrained into our psyches, and as a result, for the most part, when we experience, or cause severe violence, its generated often as a negative and traumatic, event in our concious. In our present state, I think we all perceive that there is metaphorical castration of the animalistic desires that dont benefit a civil society, especially in first world countries. And as a result I think alot of people today, especially young males, end up feeling a sense of purposeless, pent up rage, anger at the world, depression from feeling apart from society. As a more broad correlation, it could be one of the reasons for so much mass shootings, gang/cartel violence, hatred in our fellow men, as we are forced by governments, corportations, and society at large to stay sedated from these more "natural urges" to seek conflict and thrills. So many of the military I've met had honestly thought deployment was the best time of their lives, and many retirees wish they could go back and do it all again.

Perhaps there is a balance that war could provide, a "healthy" level of violence, conflict, and competition that actually satisfy our souls. Maybe if the common human sentiment against killing and death had changed to accomodate what our genetic behavioural patterns seek, trauma would be less prevalent in those who are actively at war, bringing the idea of honorable combat back. What do you guys think?
 

Null

[thecyanidemandate]
Marianan ID
157
Joined
Dec 16, 2023
Threads
2
Messages
23
Reaction score
34
Awards
3
Location
I could be in space for all I know.
Website
www.youtube.com
LV
0
 
Offline
I'm aware this is probably a pretty bizarre discussion to have on a forum completely unrelated to psychology/philosophy but its a pet topic I like to float around my circles and was wondering what you guys would think about it.
View attachment 3794
To preface this isn't a justification or endorsement of violent or psychotic behavior, it's just a thesis on human condition. Starting off with a personal anecdote to set the stage:

A good mentor of mine and I were hanging out wasted, started trading stories about some of the fucked up shit we've seen/heard about in our lives. He told me about the time that he had also gotten drunk with another guy, a friend of his who was a shrink for the VA. He'd told him about one his clients, active duty ranger, and the story of the first time he had killed someone. The client and his team were running an assault on some Afghanistan compound, and this was the first time he was going to be pointman in the stack. The shrink asked the guy how he felt, and he said that he was pretty much ecstatic, it was a surprise attack on a confirmed haji compound, 99 percent chance he was going to get to kill someone today. Said he felt like he was about to "burst with excitement" lol. Anyway they start clearing the x, and the guy's team stack up on a door, go for a breach, his body's tense, his adrenaline though the roof, they bang the door down, and as he enters he see's a guy raise his rifle towards him, and the ranger starts dumping his mag into him. He told the shrink that as soon as he saw the dude's body drop, he came his pants, like actually, literally came lmao. That moment had changed him dramatically, and he shared to the shrink that he felt an immense guilt, thought that he was inhuman, a sick freak, a psychopath, going to hell, etc. Couldn't look his kids in the face, couldn't have sex with his wife anymore, borderline suicidal at this point, so he went to this therapist. And the shrink had pretty much told him, after a long session, that there was nothing wrong with him, it was perfectly normal reaction to the adrenaline, cortisol, dopamine, everything else attributing to his hormonal high, that it just manifested physically in this "release." Think about when a hunter finally takes the shot on a deer he's been stalking, and lands the perfect hit, its the same kind of "pleasure" just multiplied by a hundred in his case, it's not reflective of his mentality. I guess that mindset worked for him, cause he met with the shrink for a few more follow-ups, and his psyche had pretty much returned to normal, no longer distressed about his guilt. My mentor then asked the shrink "is that really true, is it normal to have that kind of reaction to killing people." Shrink replied," No... that guy's a monster."

So that brings me to the actual topic, is it really immoral or wrong to "like killing," not in the serial killer fashion, more or less on the excitement of combat and war. From a biological analysis; our ancestors were hunter's and gatherer's for the majority of our evolutionary lifespan, we've developed genetic and behavioural traits to accomodate those roles. Traits which still are the foundation in much of our psychological behaviour today. Competition, conflict, "winning," are all very present in society, I think we all have a level of satisfaction that comes from these moments, and put into simple terms, we "crave that rush." However, as humanity at large aims to pull away from our animal instincts, civilization and society doesnt cater towards these more disruptive behaviours. Sure we have recreational hunting, sports, martial arts, etc, but you're only allowed these as ways to placate the satisfaction from instinctual urges. Bar fights, Gang wars, and other acts of "mutual violence" are obviously not allowed for the sake of a peaceful, civilized society; except for war.

Now you could talk all day about why war is beneficial or disruptive, but I want to focus on the effects towards the psychology of the individual. Most nowawdays, grow up with the consensus that killing, war, and the death that comes with it, is morally, ethically, and legally wrong in every manner, and should always be avoided at all costs. I think this developmental mindset ends up being ingrained into our psyches, and as a result, for the most part, when we experience, or cause severe violence, its generated often as a negative and traumatic, event in our concious. In our present state, I think we all perceive that there is metaphorical castration of the animalistic desires that dont benefit a civil society, especially in first world countries. And as a result I think alot of people today, especially young males, end up feeling a sense of purposeless, pent up rage, anger at the world, depression from feeling apart from society. As a more broad correlation, it could be one of the reasons for so much mass shootings, gang/cartel violence, hatred in our fellow men, as we are forced by governments, corportations, and society at large to stay sedated from these more "natural urges" to seek conflict and thrills. So many of the military I've met had honestly thought deployment was the best time of their lives, and many retirees wish they could go back and do it all again.

Perhaps there is a balance that war could provide, a "healthy" level of violence, conflict, and competition that actually satisfy our souls. Maybe if the common human sentiment against killing and death had changed to accomodate what our genetic behavioural patterns seek, trauma would be less prevalent in those who are actively at war, bringing the idea of honorable combat back. What do you guys think?
So like the hunger games?
 

n0sb0mb

Internet Cave Diver
Marianan ID
178
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Threads
2
Messages
19
Reaction score
35
Awards
3
LV
0
 
Offline
So like the hunger games?
Not really, it's more like getting rid of the taboo behind war and combat, ideally, bringing back the idea of finding honor in killing, many cultures had similiar prospects, pre-colonial japan, paganism, ancient rome and greece.
 

MemoryHead 記念頭部

Well-known member
V.I.P.
Marianan ID
56
Joined
Jun 29, 2023
Threads
6
Messages
211
Reaction score
243
Awards
32
LV
2
 
Offline
no. death in general is bad.

but it is the cicrumstance we are in. war is a cope. chaos begets chaos begets chaos. all war and conflict in the world in all of history is a result of orinigal sin. from there, cain committed the first murder.

the original sin, creates envy, fighting for resources, be it land, power, money, food, whatever

having said all that, war is not GOOD...but it is a necessity for the world we live in.
 

Bibr

Well-known member
V.I.P.
Marianan ID
92
Joined
Aug 27, 2023
Threads
18
Messages
324
Reaction score
455
Awards
39
Location
Araara Island
Website
birb-site.neocities.org
LV
2
 
Offline
Le war bad
However, everything that client / ranger said makes sense. We are made to hunt / kill / conquer. Modern society tamed us, that's why he felt so internally wrong about doing it. It went against everything that he was taught.
I think it wasn't really excitement about going in. It was mostly fear fueled by absurd amount of adrenaline. Maybe not absurd for someone who lived 200-300 years ago, but again. We're so "cultured" that any spike in hormones makes us feel euphoric.
I think you can't quite reach such high in a "legal" way. Sure, sports feel good and all. But there's that "it's either me or him" feeling. This real life threat is the tipping point for such situations.

It's a really nice topic. Hopefully I will remember it to bring it up during some random convo with an innocent 3rd party
 

Khastle

Herald of the Mariana
Janny
Top Poster Of Month
Marianan ID
4
Joined
Apr 2, 2023
Threads
179
Messages
1,758
Reaction score
964
Awards
79
Location
Dwayne's Basement, Mariana Bay
LV
4
 
Offline


"They grew gaunted and lank under the white suns of those days and their hollow burnedout eyes were like those of noctambulants surprised by day. Crouched under their hats they seemed fugitives on some grander scale, like beings for whom the sun hungered. Even the judge grew silent and speculative. He’d spoke of purging oneself of those things that lay claim to a man but that body receiving his remarks counted themselves well done with any claims at all. They rode on and the wind drove the fine gray dust before them and they rode an army of gray-beards, gray men, gray horses. The mountains to the north lay sunwise in corrugated folds and the days were cool and the nights were cold and they sat about the fire each in his round of darkness in that round of dark while the idiot watched from his cage at the edge of the light. The judge cracked with the back of an axe the shinbone on an antelope and the hot marrow dripped smoking on the stones. They watched him. The subject was war.

The good book says that he that lives by the sword shall perish by the sword, said the black.

The judge smiled, his face shining with grease.

What right man would have it any other way? he said.

The good book does indeed count war an evil, said Irving. Yet there’s many a bloody tale of war inside it.

It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way.

He turned to Brown, from whom he’d heard some whispered slur or demurrer. Ah Davy, he said. It’s your own trade we honor here. Why not rather take a small bow. Let each acknowledge each.

My trade?

Certainly.

What is my trade?

War. War is your trade. Is it not?

And it aint yours?

Mine too. Very much so.

What about all them notebooks and bones and stuff?

All other trades are contained in that of war.

Is that why war endures?

No. It endures because young men love it and old men love it in them. Those that fought, those that did not.

That’s your notion.

The judge smiled. Men are born for games. Nothing else. Every child knows that play is nobler than work. He knows too that the worth or merit of a game is not inherent in the game itself but rather in the value of that which is put at hazard. Games of chance require a wager to have meaning at all. Games of sport involve the skill and strength of the opponents and the humiliation of defeat and the pride of victory are in themselves sufficient stake because they inhere in the worth of the principals and define them. But trial of chance or trial of worth all games aspire to the condition of war for here that which is wagered swallows up game, player, all.

Suppose two men at cards with nothing to wager save their lives. Who has not heard such a tale? A turn of the card. The whole universe for such a player has labored clanking to this moment which will tell if he is to die at that man’s hand or that man at his. What more certain validation of a man’s worth could there be? This enhancement of the game to its ultimate state admits no argument concerning the notion of fate. The selection of one man over another is a preference absolute and irrevocable and it is a dull man indeed who could reckon so profound a decision without agency or significance either one. In such games as have for their stake the annihilation of the defeated the decisions are quite clear. This man holding this particular arrangement of cards in his hand is thereby removed from existence. This is the nature of war, whose stake is at once the game and the authority and the justification. Seen so, war is the truest form of divination. It is the testing of one’s will and the will of another within that larger will which because it binds them is therefore forced to select. War is the ultimate game because war is at last a forcing of the unity of existence. War is god. Brown studied the judge.

You’re crazy Holden. Crazy at last.

The judge smiled."
 

Punished_Senko

Well-known member
V.I.P.
Marianan ID
83
Joined
Aug 7, 2023
Threads
3
Messages
78
Reaction score
86
Awards
16
LV
1
 
Offline
no comment, just felt that this meme is appropriate for the thread.
 

Attachments

  • war_iq.png
    war_iq.png
    623 KB · Views: 14

ThirdyAughtSix

Hells Janitor
Janny
Marianan ID
15
Joined
Apr 8, 2023
Threads
28
Messages
491
Reaction score
671
Awards
48
LV
3
 
Offline
Man i was gonna write a whole ass fucking yapstorm but i decided to delete it , war is cool.
 

cultofgettingoutofcults

contradiction spotter
Marianan ID
193
Joined
Jan 31, 2024
Threads
3
Messages
53
Reaction score
55
Awards
10
Website
www.youtube.com
LV
1
 
Offline
Perhaps there is a balance that war could provide, a "healthy" level of violence, conflict, and competition that actually satisfy our souls. Maybe if the common human sentiment against killing and death had changed to accomodate what our genetic behavioural patterns seek, trauma would be less prevalent in those who are actively at war, bringing the idea of honorable combat back. What do you guys think?

in order to have a healthy level of violence, there has to be a conflict. if there isn't a conflict, then there isn't a need for war, so violence wouldn't be healthy. is it healthy to stir up conflict to motivate violence? no. why? because violence always upsets a small child. is it necessary to condition them to like violence? you'd have to initially traumatize them with that introduction to violence. what's more important? what's best for the child or what's best for the ego sucking man?

so then what's a healthy level of violence? the violence necessary to cease the violence done upon the self. i'm absolutely positive we were all abused by being introduced to the trauma of violence either 1st or 2nd hand. love can't walk in the same direction of violence, they contradict each other- how do you make a choice going in opposite directions? i will eat this cheeseburger and i will also not eat this cheeseburger. i am reading a book and also not reading a book. violence and love are two sides of the same coin. is it any wonder that so much violence is motivated by the lack of love? the "incels", the school shootings, the murder suicides.

to boil understanding down to violence is something we seek to feel good is to not see the cause of the violent feelings, the real enemy, the real abusers, the stupid that can easily be drained from us, the trajectory of man, the potential trajectory of man. healthy competition is play, violence is not play. so why would we feel the desire for violence? i'm reminded of the two minute hate in 1984. you can let your steam out if you direct it towards goldstein and not for the government oppressing you. the imaginary enemy that feeds the system that's keeping you fucking angry, weak and stupid. anger is a tightly wound rope around your neck ready to be pulled by the first person who can grab onto it. what is violence without anger? pain? do we feel these things for no reason? would we?

war also requires conducting wars. wars have always benefitted the top honchos more than the little foot soldier. i'd say, if violence was so good for us, why not stick your hand or the hand of someone you love in boiling water? how does it feel? should those feelings be disregarded to perpetuate a behavior that other people can control in us? if violence for an enemy feels good, why not figure out who that fuckin enemy is?

honorable men don't come from fighting, they come from standing up for what is good, though it may require bloodshed in defense of good. the days of honorable men played telephone with stories, killed children, and were so far up their own asshole they probably never saw the sun before they were slaughtered in battle or died of being scared of death
 

AshenMan

Moderator
Janny
Marianan ID
23
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Threads
15
Messages
693
Reaction score
693
Awards
61
Location
Scientology States of Hope County
Website
www.deviantart.com
LV
3
 
Offline
I don't want to join the Army, I don't want to go to war!
I'd rather hang around Piccadilly underground
Living off the earnings of a high born lady!
I don't want a bayonet up me ass-hole
I don't want me bullocks shot away!
I'd rather stay in England, in merry, merry England
And fornicate me bleedin' life away!

Hitler has only got one ball!
Göring has two, but very small.
Himmler has something similar.
But then ol' Goebbels has no balls at all!

We are Fred Kano's army, we are the RFC
We can not fight, we can not fuck
But bleeding good are we!
And when we get to Berlin, ol' Hitler he will say
"Ah heck mein gott!, what a puffy fine lot, oh thе boys of the RFC."

Our Sergeant Major lеads a solitary life
He can't afford a woman and he hasn't got a wife
So he uses the end of the regimental fife as
He revels in the joys of masturbation

They say there's a boat on the river, the river
They say that it's loaded with beer
Oh why is that boat on the river, the river
It fuckin' well 'ought to be here

Sing it!, hey drink a jig, fuck a little bit, all of the band
All of the band with your cock in your hand
Hey drink a jig, fuck a little bit, all of the band
All in a call of the band

Been in the saddle for countless and downwards
I've stuck it as long as I could
I've stuck it and stuck it and now I say "Fuck it!"
"My ass hole is not made of wood."

Sing it, hey drink a jig, fuck a little bit, all of the band
All of the band with your cock in your hand
Hey drink a jig, fuck a little bit, all of the band
All in a call of the band
 

jotnarr

Active member
Marianan ID
192
Joined
Jan 29, 2024
Threads
1
Messages
40
Reaction score
60
Awards
6
LV
0
 
Offline
didn't know people actually coomed to killing
but yeah maybe we should be more supporting of war & killing
 
Boatyard
Rules Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
      There are no messages in the current room.